Author Topic: .22 LR Lethality  (Read 8651 times)

Offline techmike

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Re: .22 LR Lethality
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2011, 09:51:04 PM »
This has been an interesting thread! Thanks all for contributing. Has anyone heard of this?

http://www.gunblast.com/Paco-Flatface.htm

Offline 21rides2rule

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Re: .22 LR Lethality
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2011, 01:23:41 PM »
this is an awesome thread the 22lr is prob my favorite round for sheer enjoyment shooting, cost, noise(get a sub sonic in a rifle you dont even need ear protection) i know that generally yes bigger is better and more likely to put someone down quicker, but i do not understand why everyone treats the 22lr as a joke... it is still a powder fired projectile that with some of these new loads that will def make a decent hole with a good wound channel... i was working the ER (i am a paramedic student) a couple weeks ago and had two victims of a gang shooting that had been shot with a 9mm come in, one vic had been shot in the left side of his neck narrowly missing his arteries and trachea it stayed lodged right in front of his vertebrea, second victim had been shot in the left upper chest bullet had gone straight though him. he stated "it felt like a cell phone buzzing" when he got hit neither one of them was in very much pain neither one had been knocked down and both had been driven in by friends. can't say about the 22lr yet havent seen anyone shoot with that yet, but ill bet it would have done just as much damage...

Offline Kilibreaux

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Re: .22 LR Lethality
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2011, 02:17:17 PM »
Popcorn45:  Sounds like you have experiences that are worth retelling!
My comments aren't intended to put a damper on other perceptions...or maybe they are.  I spent 8 years in the Army and saw combat.  I thought I'd "seen it all" until I became a trauma nurse.  Within the first year of being a trauma nurse I realized that any handgun producing less than rifle-like ballistics was pretty much the same as ANY handgun wound.  A bigger bullet makes a bigger hole...it's that simple...but maybe not.  .45ACP's tend to penetrate less than 9mm's due to sectional density and so often fail to produce the sort of wound expected.  On the other hand, 22's tend to tear up everything and cause amazing damage and incapacitation.
The bigger (meaning more powerful) calibers are "needed" primarily for barricade penetration, but for stopping humans a puny .22LR will do the job every time.  The FACT is the only REAL thing that creates an instant stop is direct interdiction of the nervous system...everything else is purely problematic.
I am grieved by the fact that what the ammo makers have ordained has become what the average person believes they must carry.  The fact is, a LEAD SWC bullet impacting at supersonic velocity has amazing "stopping power" (witnessed).  This does not reap profits for ammo companies and they promote newer and better expanding jacketed ammo.
For anyone who cares or takes the science of ballistics seriously, velocity - SPEED is everything!  Rifle bullets prove this, but somehow when we enter the realm of pistol calibers everyone reverts to the nonsense of "momentum" and big bullets at slow speed get the job done.  Einstein wasn't wrong...despite what laypeople think.  Double velocity - quadruple energy, double mass - double energy.  The terminal effects of bullet wounds are obvious...bullets impacting at high speed cause massive damage, those at low speed do not.  The problem is complicated by the bullet's "style" or composition.  Ammo makers want us to believe we MUST HAVE high tech jacketed designed for low speed expanion, combined with the semi-auto pistol notion that one MUST use jacketed bullets.  The fact is, hard cast LEAD bullets are often "harder" than jacketed, and properly designed semi-autos will chamber SWC styles quite well.
If you were in bear country would you prefer a JHP or a SWC in a given caliber--say .44 magnum.  The SWC is likely to punch clean through the bear versus the JHP which might expand violently on bone and fail to reach the vitals.
Look at modern TANK rounds...do they favor mass or speed?  SPEED clearly...the modern tank gun fires a HyperVelocityDiscardingSabot round at over a mile per second...a depleted uranium or tungsten carbide round that relies PURELY on impact kinetic energy to bore through armor.
A .223 is effective because it pushes a .22 bullet to velocities BEYOND hypervelocity which causes massive tissue destruction.  A 7.62x51mm impacting a human joint such as the knee will blow the lower extremity clean off...because the "temporary" expansion cavity is larger than the entire knee!
The problem with handgun ballistics has been the "reversion" to big bullet, suck-slow speed versus lighter bullet going "mighty-fast"!  A .357 Magnum at 1400+ FPS with a SWC, FMJ, or JSP will punch clean through a human and create massive ancillary trauma.  A 9mm TC design loaded to PROPER 9mm speeds will punch clean through a human and do massive destruction.  A .45 185 gr. TC design will bust clean through  human when loaded to PROPER velocities, yet the ammo makers have made the public believe they need the slow-moving 230 grain at 830 fps(if you're lucky).
The .400 Corbon is an ideal conversion for t he .45ACP because it pushes much lighter bullets to supersonic speeds producing much higher kinetic energies than stock .45ACP loads.
It doesn't take a genius to observe the impact of a .400 Corbon 135 gr. versus the .45 230 gr. to know which is transferring greater energy, but the ammo companies have done a masterful job of convincing the shooting public that everything they thought (know) is true...is wrong.
But I wax philosophic...the .22LR PROVES that tiny, light bullets as high speed do amazing damage!

Offline bdavison

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Re: .22 LR Lethality
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2011, 08:11:28 AM »
If faced with a charging grizzly bear, or a raging bull moose, which would you rather have? A .22 or a .44 mag?

Nuff said.

Why would a drugged up criminal be any different?


Offline 21rides2rule

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Re: .22 LR Lethality
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2011, 09:32:47 AM »
^^^ yes and i dont think anyone is saying the 22lr is better or more powerful than the bigger calibers but rather just how lethal the 22lr is compared to everyones opinion that the 22lr is a "joke" or a "toy round" i have a decent amount of big calibers handguns and rifles but prob the most fun i have is with the 22s... it allows you to really work on basics, marksmanship, trigger control, etc etc and you can practice all day for pennies and almost no one minds where you shooting a 22 anywhere

Offline Popcop45

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Re: .22 LR Lethality
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2011, 06:02:29 PM »
Shot placement is paramount. I've seen a single BB gun shot permanently paralyze a kid. My skinny co-worker shot 9 times with a 9mm and walked out of the hospital a few days later. I've seen a guy on PCP take a .44 mag in the back and keep walking like a wasp just stung him. Eventually he died of course. Y'all remember 'SCARFACE' the Tony Montana scene where her taking all kinds of fire, while he's coked up? That's Hollywood but not far from the truth.
Shot placement and quality ammo is what is all about. Just today I was shooting a 5 gallon bucket with Aguila Super Max HP were making 1" entry holes. Remember, practice, train hard, train safe.   
"9/11 The truth is out there"

Offline DNR

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Re: .22 LR Lethality
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2011, 07:54:13 PM »
Crime lab background here.

One of the best things I can say for .22 letality - .25 cal, .32 cal, even .380 from a 2" barrel - had nothing over the high velocity, lead bullet mess a .22 puts on meat. I would even rather get shot with a .38 than a high velocity .22 - at least it will be one slug to dig out, not a shotgun pattern of lead bits.

Terminal ballistics favors high velocity over bullet weight anytime. It creates a temporary cavity, and hydrostatic shock. The fact the .22 bullet breaks up almost everytime, made it a favorite bullet for assasins - no rifling marks or bullet striations to compare - made it harder to match bullets to a gun.

Funny thing about people and dying - some die easy, some will run for miles with no heartbeat. Go figure.

For those who will experience combat - it is all psychological - he who has the stronger will will survive. Your body will suffer the "golden hour' - no pain during trauma - most victims were overcome by weak psychological reasons - "I should be dying!". Train to fight through.

Medical background and more crime lab - your body can function for 10 full seconds without a heartbeat. Case in fact  - people with their hearts blown out were still able to run and fight for up to 10 seconds. Again, proves that its the will to fight, not physical.
Bad thing is - yes I wonder, if a person is decapitated, they could very well veiw their body stumbling around for a full 10 seconds too.  I wished I did not know stuff like this..

-DNR

Offline DNR

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Re: .22 LR Lethality
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2011, 08:04:14 PM »
Also Props to Bda - he recommends that the .22 not be your first choice for home defense.
He is right, I would consider the .22 lr a decent choice - if I did not have a 12 gauge or .45.

For fight bad guys, again - you, the victim are at disavantage - you are being ambushed, attacked at close range, with little or no preparation. At best - you might only get off one shot, and it might not be aimed. I would hope that shot would be a 12 gauge or .45 - as Bda points out - those bullets are capable of incapitating a bad guy with a off center shot. The .22 needs a well placed shot., the .22 needs to keep firing until the bad guy is down.

Bad guys are pumped up, angry, jumping you in the dark and so stealthlike - you need every advantage to survive - I would not bet it all on a .22. The .22 is only a part of your tool kit, and perhaps this is not the best function of a .22 - home defense.

I would use the .22 to practise tactical training, so it is still very valuable.

-DNR

Offline Kilibreaux

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Re: .22 LR Lethality
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2011, 05:25:26 PM »
The question of whether the .22LR is "better" than larger caliber centerfire rounds is somewhat moot.  The .22LR will kill, and it will incapacitate.  Should someone opt to leave their 12 gauge in the closet and select their .22LR for home defense?  I have not said that and do not advocate such.  All I have said is the .22LR is a lethal round capable of inflicting mortal injury and should NOT be viewed as inconsequential in the spectrum of choices related to choices.
A .22LR will punch to the vitals...a .22LR will "do someone" quite efficiently.
Anything that suggests otherwise is pure hogwash and bullshit.
Humans by their nature must justify the choices they make regardless of reality, and despite empiric evidence to the contrary.  A LONG time ago during the age of swords we discovered a through and through puncture was superior to a slashing cut by a sword.  The same holds true with the ballistics of small caliber rounds.  We think we need more "power" yet the brutal fact is small, penetrating wounds do a masterful job of putting a relatively large human down.
While it would seem preposterous to advise anyone to carry a .22LR for self-defense, the tiny round delivers far beyond what its paper ballistics suggest.

Offline a|ex

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Re: .22 LR Lethality
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2011, 06:12:01 PM »
doesn't matter what caliber, just hit your target... shotguns don't automatically hit their targets either. bad guys don't just stand in the open. when they see you with a gun, they will react. if they shoot first and hit, it doesn't matter what gun you have.

pistols are more maneuverable than rifles/shotguns but are much harder to aim with. for home defense, the range isn't much and a pistol is preferred unless you have a very short barrel shotgun. i frequently do CQB airsoft games and rifle muzzles are easy to grab coming around a corner. shooting at the stairs is not as easy. even with a shotgun.

if the firefight lasts longer than 5 minutes, then you will need more ammo.

hitting the target is more important than caliber size. whatever you train with will work best. there are more concerns in home defense than just caliber size.

-a|ex

Offline Longitude Zero

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Re: .22 LR Lethality
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2011, 01:03:09 PM »
Target impact and location of impact is ALL that matters.  Even as deadly as a 22LC can be a hit in the foot will stop nobody from continuing their deadly assault been there seen that.  As KB said the only sure fire method is to disconnetc the brain from the body as high up the spinal column as possible.

Close range shotgun hits are nasty and generally fatal more often than not.

Offline a|ex

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Re: .22 LR Lethality
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2011, 04:43:30 PM »
here's a post of a group of frat boys going after an asian ccw.
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/012010_Family_Of_Eddie_DiDonato_Speaks_Out_After_Shooting
the article tries to make the shooting victim a hero, but the jury viewed the surveillance video and saw the shooter as defending himself against 3 attackers.

the shooting victim was shot 6x within 5 feet with a .38 pistol. he will recover. as i pointed out, caliber size doesn't matter if you can't aim correctly.

surveillance video here
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/Old_City_Shooting_01_17_10

the shooter needed more range time, but he sure was quick to draw and unload. punching while shooting isn't something i've considered practicing.

Offline Popcop45

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Offline Kilibreaux

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Re: .22 LR Lethality
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2011, 10:59:49 PM »
Interestingly a lot of hunting guides carry a .22LR and claim it will handle anything they encounter.  In reading and endless number of posts over the years I've noted people using standard .22LR ammo to dispatch Deer, Moose, and even Bear...and of course the .22LR has been used in a "sporting mode" to take every species of "game" on earth.
My own experiences growing up in the south confirm that while we always aspired to have larger calibers, our inexpensive, single-shot Sears brand bolt action loaded with whatever was on sale for 50 cents a box took care of whatever was shot with it.  The big calibers were certainly explosively impressive - the .44 mags, .30-30's, '06, and even the 7mm Rem Mag, but take away the departure of body parts and the ubiquitous .22LR would do the same job just fine, and this was BEFORE The modern era of hypervelocity ammo that is amazingly destructive by comparison.
Aside from the priming method and heel-based bullet-to-case interface, the modern .22LR is a pretty sweet round that makes all the sense in the world for a "survival aresenal."  The latest generation of "assualt" cartridges such as the 5.7x28 deliver .22 Mag kinetic energies in a more expensive package, while at the same time top-of-the-line .22LR ammo achieves approximately 2/3rds the energy of such rounds.
Go back and watch the video of the Reagan attempted assassination - four people took hits from SHORT barreled .22 revolvers and not one jumped up and chortled; "that didn't hurt, what a punk round!"  Reagan WOULD have died if not for quick response and modern surgery, Brady was "vegetablize," some DC police chief was dropped, as was a Secret Service agent who can be seen in the video taking an abdominal hit...he went down and didn't jump up bragging about how the puny .22 didn't do any damage.

I have at least 5000 rounds of 7.62 on hand, and another 3000 of 5.56 not to mention ample 00 buck and slug loads, as well as .45ACP and 9mm for "the day," yet I have over 10,000 rounds of .22 ammo quietly awaiting the same catastrophe because it costs a LOT less money so I can afford to keep a lot on hand, EACH round will accomplish the same thing each round of the bigger stuff will, and I can "afford" to send out 15 rounds per second of .22LR easily by comparison to the big calibers.  A five round burst of .22LR costs far less than just ONE centerfire round and delivers 650-1000 lb-ft of kinetic energy which is more than enough to make anyone pause and say, "oh!"

Offline kandyredcoi

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Re: .22 LR Lethality
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2011, 07:20:36 AM »
with all this being said, and i DO agree that the .22lr is NO JOKE and i also consider it as a good survival/shtf ammo

which brand/type of .22lr would you guys/gals recommend to be the best for sd/hd purpose?
-Coi- N R A member
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